Manee

As I promised in my 100th post, I want to start digging a little deeper into actual translation of Thai text. Grammar and vocabulary are obviously very important things to learn, study, and review, but putting it all together is really what it’s all about. I can’t just sit and try to memorize vocabulary lists, and studying grammar books is about as much fun as watching my wife paint her toenails (much as I love her).

Since I’m no Thai language expert I thought it would be best to work through the Manee books. Always up for a challenge, I decided to start with the Grade 2, Volume 1 book. (Not really a challenge, per se, but the Grade 1 books have very fragmented sentences and doesn’t work well for translating.)

So, I’m starting with Manee Grade 2 and working very slowly. Time is a bit of a factor, as is my current Thai education level. But let’s work together and see how well we can do, shall we? My hope is that we can work together and discuss each “lesson” so we can get better as a group.

Time to dig in!

First, let’s start with the text in Thai that we’ll be working with. Here is the first paragraph:

Let’s break down each one separately and examine, in detail, what’s going on. The first part is really a phrase:

/cháao wan-sǎo/
(Morning Saturday)
Saturday morning,

This is straightforward to start. Remember that in Thai adjectives and adverbs follow the noun or verb, so one way I like to think of how this works is like working from general to specific. “Morning” is a general concept, and “Saturday” gets more specific about a particular morning.

/mɛ̂ɛ chuan maa-nii bpai sʉ́ʉ gàp kâao tîi dtà-làat/
(Mother invite/persuade Manee go “to buy” [with rice] – “food” – at market)
Mother invited Manee to go buy food at the market.

First, obviously be aware that “Manee” is the girl’s name. Just so you don’t spend hours trying to look it up in a dictionary.

กับข้าว when literally translated means “with rice.” At first you might try to translate this word-for-word, but “with rice” is not entirely accurate. The general concept here is that most – if not practically all – Thai food gets served “with rice,” and so the phrase กับข้าว has come to mean “food.” There will be, of course, instances where “with rice” is supposed to mean just that, but as a general rule you should err on the side of thinking of it as “food.”

Another way of translating this sentence would be “Mother invited Manee to go food shopping at the market.” How you translate is also very much dependent on your audience. This version will probably sound better when translating to an American audience. Your mileage may vary.

/maa-nii chûai hîu dtà-grâa hâi mɛ̂ɛ/
(Manee help hold basket for Mother)
Manee held the basket for her Mom.

In this sentence, the word for “help” is important – in the manner of Thai speaking – because it expresses the fact that Manee is helping her mom by holding the basket. When translating, however, the interpretation is up to you based on your audience. We could just as easily have said “Manee helped her Mom by holding the basket for her.” Either interpretation will work, but make sure you understand the overall context, because there may be cases where an explanation of why she is helping has been specifically stated and therefore should absolutely be included in the translation.

The next sentence seems fragmented when you look at the Thai script. We’ll break it down section by section and then put it all together again.

/nai dtà-làat mii kon mâak/
(In market have people many)
There are many people in the market.

Working with คนมาก is the same as when we translated เช้าวันเสาร์. I like to think from general to specific, so “people” is the general concept and “many” is the specific type of people.

Don’t get too caught up in “to have” as the definition for มี, which is a mistake I made a lot early on. I guess you could say “The market has many people” but that sounds weird to me, especially when ใน is included in the sentence.

/lɛ́ mii kɔ̌ɔng kǎai lǎai yàang/
(and have thing sell “many kinds”)
And have many kinds of things to sell.

This sentence really needs the other two phrases, so before I dig into them let’s finish it up:

/kɔ̌ɔng gin gɔ̂ɔ mii/
(“food” also have)
Also have things to eat.

/kɔ̌ɔng chái gɔ̂ɔ mii/
(“utensils” also have)
Also have utensils.

Sorry for the broken English, folks. The basic idea of this sentence is something along the lines of, “And there are many things for sale: they have food, and they also have utensils.” That’s the gist, anyway. The interesting grammatical note here is the use of “also have” for both groups of items. To my knowledge (maybe someone more qualified can chime in here) this is not a hard-and-fast grammatical rule, but rather just one of the ways you can list several items.

And that’s the end of the first paragraph; a small but good start I suppose. Here is the translation all in one place:

Mom invited Manee to go to the market. Manee held the basket for her mom. There are many people at the market, and there are many kinds of things to sell, things to eat, and they also have utensils [for sale].

I admit the last part is a bit ragged, but it’s a kid’s book after all.

Happy 100!

It took a little bit more than a year to do it, but I’m very happy to be able to write this post, my 100th, today. I started Learning Thai (My Story) on July 1st, 2009, primarily as an experiment. I knew that I wanted to start writing a blog about something, but I wasn’t quite sure what that something was going to be. Guitar seemed like an obvious choice, and I eventually moved forward with that project to create my Fretterverse guitar blog; but, I needed a blog project to get my feet wet first and see if I had the time, energy, and chutzpah to make it work.

Thai language and culture seemed like the next natural choice. I knew that if done right it would give me the ability to meet other Thai language learners and create the relationships I would need to help me with my education. So I dove in with both feet, not really sure what to expect, and not really sure how long it would last. I’m so glad I made it this far.

What’s interesting to me is not necessarily how much better (or not) that my Thai has improved. I realize that is an ever-continuing quest. No, what’s most interesting to me – and what has become the biggest payoff since starting the blog – is the number of wonderful people I have met along the way. Not having much experience with blogs and blogging before starting on this journey, I didn’t realize the impact that blogs could have on people’s lives until I started one myself. I feel truly honored to have met (albeit virtually) so many wonderful people.

The online Thai language and culture community is very small, but with that comes a very strong camaraderie, where it seems that everyone truly wants to help everyone else learn. So, in honor of my 100th post (and looking ahead to the next 100) I would like to give shout outs to those people who have helped me along the way, those people and sites I admire, and any other happy-go-lucky stuff my stream of consciousness will take me in the next few paragraphs.

My Mentor

WomenLearnThai.com

First and foremost I have to give a huge, ginormous, epic shout-out to the one blogger who has given me tons and tons of help, advice, and input. I’m sure if you are interested in Thai language and culture you are already familiar with her work, but it goes without saying that Catherine’s Women Learning Thai blog is the best on the Internet.

I don’t know how Cat will feel being pegged with the “mentor” title, but I owe her a huge debt of gratitude for her help. I can only dream of having a site as comprehensive and kick-ass as WLT. Without her help and advice I probably would have given up by now, and my blog would not be nearly as good as it is now.

I encourage everyone who reads my blog to also visit Cat’s. Spend a lot of time there, you won’t regret it!

Thai-Language.com

Glenn Slayden’s Thai-language.com is the perhaps the best site on the Internet for learning Thai vocabulary and grammar. The comprehensive online dictionary has thousands and thousands of entries; you can pretty much find any word or phrase you want. His reference sections are also very useful, but the highlight of the site has to be the discussion forum. Any question you could possibly have can be answered here by the incredibly knowledgeable forum members. Without the help of Nan, David, R.E.G., r2d2, Richard, and many others, my language skills and others would be greatly diminished.

Also, I would like to thank all of you that visit LTMS and especially those of you who post comments. Your contribution and support is greatly appreciated and I cannot tell you how much your patronage means to me. You folks rock!

Shout-outs are also deserved for Greg, Cody, Learn Thai Podcast, and Paiboon Publishing. I’m sure I’m missing a ton of great people. (Sorry!)

So what’s in store for the next 100 posts and beyond? Probably more of the same. Thai language has definitely become the focus of my posts, but that’s not to say I won’t also write about other Thailand-related subjects. It’s really just a case of wherever my fancy lies on that particular day. I do know that I want to start getting more into translation of stories and their underlying grammatical structures, so be on the lookout for that. I’m also always searching for new ways to improve the usability and functionality of the site, so be on the lookout for new tweaks and tucks.

Once again, thanks  very much to all of you for making these first 100 posts an absolute pleasure. Here’s to the next 100!

Anyone remember this game show?

This past weekend Su and I had some friends over to hang out. The wife is originally from Thailand and the husband is a farang with excellent Thai language skills. I always enjoy spending time with them, certainly because they are cool people but also because I know I am going to walk away with some good Thai language learning advice and skills.

Our friends introduced us to a game designed to help me with vocabulary and basic sentence structure/grammar. We all thought it was a lot of fun and I thought it would be good to share with you as well.

I should tell you up front that the game is going to require at least two people, although having three or four people makes it much more interesting. I can understand that being difficult for some as it seems that most of us language learners do so alone. But if you have a few friends also learning Thai or, better yet, have some Thai language speakers that like games, you’ll dig this.

The game is quite similar to the old game show called The $10,000 Pyramid or the Taboo board game. If you have ever seen this show you have a pretty good idea of how the game is played.

So here we go. One person writes down five words in Thai, but make sure the third person does not see them! These words should be commensurate with your Thai skill level. If necessary, the person can also write down the English translation for each word.

It is your job to provide clues to your partner – in Thai – to help them guess what word you are looking at. You can’t use the word itself, but you can use other words and or phrases/sentences to help them guess. For example:

If the word is รถ /rót/ you might want to use clues like this:

• vehicle
• bus
• taxi
• “You sit in it and use it as transportation when you want to go somewhere.
• tuk-tuk

You get the idea. You can’t say the word รถ, so it can get tricky. It’s certainly a great way to see exactly how much you know and how much you don’t. For me, it showed me exactly how bad my vocabulary is and how much more I really need to learn words and their meanings. It’s also great in that it forces you to try and explain concepts and words in ways that you normally would not do.

I’m sure someone out there could probably turn this into a drinking game, too, if that’s what motivates you.

Their “Speak Like a Thai” series is something I have been keeping my eye on for a while but had not purchased until recently. I guess I figured that I already owned a ton of learning materials, so it was probably good to pace myself. But, curiosity always eventually gets the better of me and I broke down and purchased the first two audio CDs in the Speak Like a Thai series. The first volume – Contemporary Thai Expressions – is a collection of 500 miscellaneous (but common) phrases that you will hear when speaking with Thai people.

My normal Thai learning regimen doesn’t usually involve learning common phrases or typical conversational Thai, but there’s nothing that says it wouldn’t help to have some useful phrases handy, right? So this first volume was of much interest to me. Each CD in the group also comes with a booklet to accompany the audio. The beginning section of the book is an overview of the language – tones, vowels, consonants… all with audio examples. I won’t go so far as to say this is a “beginners” CD, but having the pronunciation tools is always a good thing.

The meat of the course is, obviously, the phrases. Here is where I’m a little torn on how to rate the product. On one hand, you get 500 very useful phrases that you can immediately use in everyday Thai conversation. Everything from “What are you doing?” to “What should I do?” to “You expect too much.” is included. The book has all of these phrases with the romanization and Thai script, so you can read along as you listen to the audio.

The audio itself is where I think I have some trouble. Each example in the book is numbered, and yet the audio doesn’t have numbers. If you were to stop the audio at any point and go back at a later date, you don’t really know where you are; with 500 phrases to deal with that can be somewhat of a pain in the butt to try and find your place again.

Second, the phrases are only spoken once, so you only get one shot at hearing how the phrase is pronounced. I wish they had taken each phrase and said it once all the way through, leaving space for us to try and say it, then separate each word and give us time to pronounce each one, and then say the complete phrase again and give us more space to practice. The phrases move by so quickly that you don’t really get any time to say them aloud before the next phrase is given. I find this to be a big detriment to the effectiveness of this product as a learning tool.

So, overall I think I’m a bit torn about this first volume in the series. On the one hand you get a ton of very helpful phrases to use, but the inability to practice them slowly and effectively (for my taste, at least) makes it difficult to learn and internalize them. I think you would have to listen to the audio tracks several dozen times before you would start to memorize them.

To date I think Learn Thai Podcast does the best job of breaking the sentences down for learning, and their approach should be the litmus for all new products moving forward.

Do I recommend Speak Like a Thai, Volume 1? Well, yes. You’re definitely getting a lot of helpful material. Just be aware of a potential steep learning curve due to lack of space and repetition.

Bangkok Day by Day

Trying to keep up with all of the Thailand travel guides can be tricky. It seems like a new one pops up every week. Thailand keeps getting more and more popular every year for foreign tourists, so it’s only fitting that new guides are coming out more frequently. Despite the political tensions, I see tourism in Thailand continuing to grow stronger and stronger for many years to come.

As the number of farang visiting The Land of Smiles increases, the need for accurate and reliable travel books becomes more important. The more travel books I read for this blog, the more I cherish what makes each book unique just as much as what “required” information each one contains.

I stumbled across Frommer’s Bangkok Day by Day while perusing the travel section of my local book store. It’s a relatively unassuming book considering it’s size (it’s small compared to most), but don’t let the size fool you. It literally gives meaning to the phrase “Don’t judge a book by its cover.”

Bangkok Day by Day is a handy, pocket-sized Bangkok travel book that starts out with a section called “17 Favourite Moments.” This is brilliant; Colin gives you a list of the things he liked the most about Bangkok, complete with a map pinpointing how to get to each one. Granted, #17 is “Thai people,” which is a bit of a stretch, but I get where he’s coming from and don’t really fault him for that. It’s the first book I’ve seen where the author gives his personal recommendations right up front in its own section, so kudos for coming up with that idea.

Great descriptions of places to see

The rest of the book is organized in “Best of…” sections: The Best Shopping, The Best Dining, The Best Nightlife… you get the idea. As with most travel guides, a map of each section is included, as well as place listings with phone numbers and websites are given. It’s really a no-brainer anymore, which almost takes the fun out of it since you don’t have to do any exploring nowadays. But I digress…

Author Colin Hinshelwood goes to great lengths to maintain a personal vibe, which I really like. The writing style is done in such a way as you feel like Colin is sending you a personal email with his opinions about each place listed in the book.

Another feature I really liked was actually the first section of the book, which features the best of One Day, Two Day, and Three Day tours. If you are looking for a bit more structure in your traveling and don’t want to wander around exploring on your own, this section provides you with a great way to see much of what Bangkok has to offer. Basically, if you want a two-day tour you do the One Day tour of the book and then add on the day two section. The same obviously applies to the three-day tour.

One of the front cover fold-out maps

Perhaps the most convenient aspect of this book are the included maps. I don’t just mean the maps shown in the pages of the book, either. The front cover of the book folds out into two maps – “Bangkok Transport” and “Central Bangkok” – which is an absolute must-have nowadays.

You should have no problems getting to and from the major attractions by using the front cover maps by themselves. The Bangkok Transport map shows you the Skytrain routes, as well as all of the ferry and tourist boat routes, so at any given point you’ll know exactly how close (or far) you are from public transportation. (Of course, there are always the tuk-tuks, taxis, and moped drivers to get you where you need to go.)

The Central Bangkok map is a very general overview map. There is not much detail here, but it gives you a very clear idea of where the major areas and roads are, which should make your planning easier.

One of the maps inside the book

There is another map in the book as well. A fold-out map also comes with the guide, and features a larger and more detailed Central Bangkok map. This heavy-grade paper map is a great addition and will make your traveling much easier. I was very happy to see them include this map.

There is only one part of the book I just don’t understand. The subtitle of the guide is “13 Smart Ways to See the City.” I looked the book over several times and just don’t see where they get 13 Smart Ways. I mean, there seems to be a lot more than 13 ways, and I’m just not sure how the organization of the book facilitates this subtitle. Trust me, it’s a complete non-issue as my inability to see the connection doesn’t detract from how good it is.

Overall, Frommer has done an excellent job of creating a small and easy-to-use Bangkok travel guide. I highly recommend it for all BKK travelers, and I will be bringing it with me on my next trip with the specific purpose of going to some of the places author Hinshelwood suggests.

To date, of the books I have seen (I still have a few more to review and blog about) I think this book, combined with the Eyewitness travel book I reviewed recently, are the two must-have travel guides for your trip.

Currently on ARGH! level 6

I just wrote a post for my other blog, where I express my frustration with a lack of progress in both my guitar practicing and Thai language studies. It’s been a struggle recently, as you will see when you (hopefully) read what’s going on.

Since I highly value the opinions of my blog readers here – as I do with my other blog – I figured I would seek out some advice here as well. I know there is a solution out there, and hopefully some of you can hip me to it.

Please have a look at what I wrote and give me some suggestions. I need to get unstuck from my current rut and keep moving forward.

ตัว, คน, or ดอก?

I’ve admittedly been putting this subject off for a long time now. It’s not necessarily an overly-complex subject, but it’s one that gets somewhat overlooked by many beginning Thai language students.

I feel that knowledge of classifiers – what they are and how they work – seem to fall somewhere in the “intermediate” language learning area for Thai. They aren’t something beginners necessarily need to worry about, but they should definitely have been figured out (the concept, at least) well before one considers themselves fluent. (I’m not one of those people, btw…)

So without further adieu, I give you Thai Classifiers…

What Are Classifiers?

The best explanation I can come up with is that classifiers are words used with nouns to help with classifications (hence the name). Yes, that sounds a bit roundabout, so see if this helps. I believe that this concept of classifiers came about because many Asian languages don’t have plural noun forms. Whereas in English we have the singular “dog” and plural “dogs,” Thai, Japanese, and some others only have “dog” for both singular and plural forms.

In most cases this makes language learning much easier, as you don’t have to try and learn plural noun forms. But, ambiguity can become a big problem. Here’s an example of where things can get wonky:

หมาใหญ่
/mǎa yài/
(dog big)

Now, normally you would say, “Okay, no big deal, this means ‘big dogs’.”

But that’s not entirely accurate. What if the person was actually trying to say “a big dog,” meaning one specific dog that is big? That’s a different animal (pun intended) than talking about a group of dogs that are big. And so this is where classifiers become very useful.

By including the classifier for “dog,” which is “ตัว” /dtua/ (a generic classifier for animals), we can now infer that the speaker is talking about a specific big dog. The sentence will look like this:

หมาตัวใหญ่
/mǎa dtua yài/
(dog [CLS for animal] big)
A big dog

The addition of the classifier takes a lot of ambiguity out of the sentence.

Classifier Placement

The general rule is to place classifiers after the noun they are referring to. This seems counter-intuitive for most, but you get used to it with Thai. However, when you are talking about numbers (how many of a certain object) then the grammatical structure becomes:

noun + number + classifier

So, for example:

แมวสองตัว
/mɛɛo sɔ̌ɔng dtua/
(cat two [CLS for animal])
Two cats

As always, the folks at TLC have a great list of classifiers – both noun classifiers and a more in-depth discussion of numeric classifiers. I will leave the advanced materials to them and stick with the basics here. If you can wrap your head around the basic concept and have a good number of classifiers memorized then you should be just fine.

I should also mention that there is the generic classifier อัน /an/, so if you get really stuck you can just use it in place of the actual classifier and people won’t hold it against you.

I see you...

In this installment of Grammar Wars, I want to take a look at two Thai words that mean “to see.” These words are:

เจอ /jəə/

and

เห็น /hěn/

Shall we dig in?

These two are actually pretty easy I think. Both words, in at least one of their definitions, means “to see.” I think the distinction between these words and how they are used (or confused) has more to do with our American/English language interpretation of being able “to see.”

In English, “to see” can mean three things:

1. To physically see something.”I see that tree” as an example.
2. To comprehend a statement or opinion being made. “I see what you mean.”
3. To encounter someone or something. “I will see him tomorrow.”

In all three cases the word “see” is used, but they have distinctly different meanings.

In Thai, I think it’s best to think of the word เจอ to mean something similar to #3 above; you are meeting or encountering someone or coming across something. For example:

พรุ่งนี้ผมจะเจอคุฌ
/prûng-níi pǒm ja jəə kun/
(tomorrow I will see you)
Tomorrow, I will see you.

In the case of เห็น, I would tend to think of this more as #1 or #2. For example:

ไม่ได้เห็นหนัง
/mâi dâi hěn nǎng/
(not can see movie)
I didn’t see the movie.

The difference may, perhaps, be subtle, but I think being mindful that in English we have several meanings for words where the Thai language may use several words for each difference.

First, you will see that the “Learn Thai Words” is back. A glitch in some code update made this go away temporarily, but now it’s back. I’ll be adding more words to this slowly but surely.

Second, a “Thailand News” RSS feed has been added. This grabs the latest posts from Google related to Thailand and makes them easily available for you to read.

Third, a “Community Links” widget has been added. I’m most excited about this, as it allows everyone to submit links to their favorite news stories and blog posts from anywhere on the web. I’m sure this is going to get spammed, but the good news is that the section is moderated so nothing will be posted without me seeing it first.

I strongly encourage everyone to submit links. Your favorite Thai blog articles, news items etc. The only thing I ask is that you not post overly-political items that lean too far to one side or another. Those items won’t be posted. But anything else is welcome and I hope it’s a way for us to grow the Thai blogger community.

Lastly, I’ve put up a “Buy Me a Snapple” donation widget. I held off on doing this for a long time, but since the Learning Thai (My Story) blog is now over one year old (Happy Anniversary to me!) I figured it was a good time. The purpose of the donation widget is hopefully to make enough scratch to cover my blog expenses. This would be things like hosting charges, products I want to review but have to buy with my own money, and getting royalty-free (but paid) images to enhance my posts.

It would be wonderful if I could also have it help pay for my trips to Thailand, but I’m not going to press my luck. If you like the site, if something I have written has helped you, taught you, or entertained you, and you feel compelled to donate, anything would help. If not, that’s fine too!

Thanks, everyone. I hope you like the new updates.

It's "tsch" not "sch" you no good...

This topic has caused many a debate in the world of Thai grammar and language. Like one of those all-too-common Asian government gang fights they pass off as legislation debates, the issue of how exactly we Westerners should pronounce Thai consonants and vowels is highly discussed and often argued.

I have my own thoughts, which I will share with you today. Please keep in mind that these are general suggestions, not intended to be taken as the absolute way. These ideas are meant to get you a little bit closer to sounding more natural when you speak Thai, and for me to learn as well. If you have any thoughts on the subject, please chime in.

Since we’re not trying to pass any new laws, let’s keep the fist-fighting to a minimum as I discuss five pronunciation tips…

ก and the “G” Sound

Give him a toothpick and lollipop and he'll make you a spaceship!

And so we begin with the first consonant of the Thai alphabet – ก (กอ ไก่) /gɔɔ gài/. ก is more than just a simple “G” sound; it’s pronounced more like “gk.” There’s a bit of harshness to the sound, which seems to come from placing the back part of your tongue on your palate and then pronouncing a “gk” sound. (My non-medical background hard at work here, as you can see.) Think about the way you pronounce the last name of America’s greatest do-it-yourselfer: MacGuyver. The “G” in his last name is pretty close to what I’m talking about.

จ and the “J” Sound

จ (จอ จาน) /jɔɔ jaan/would typically seem easy enough to pronounce. Heck, my name is Josh so I should have this letter and sound nailed, right? Well, in Thai, the “j” sound for จ sounds more like a “tjch” sound. It’s a slightly harder, more percussive sound than we would normally pronounce it. I almost think of it as a Russian consonant sound, though I admit to having no experience with the Russian language. The image I get, however, helps me with trying to recreate the sound.

ต and the “DT” Sound

ต (ตอ เต่า) /dtɔɔ dtào/ seems to trip people up the most out of all of the Thai consonants. When I say this consonant, the sound seems to generate from the back of my mouth, with my tongue on the palate. It’s a more percussive sound than the regular “D” ด (ดอ เด็ก) sound.

ป and the “BP” Sound

ป (ปอ ปลา) /bpɔɔ bplao/ – similar to ต – is a percussive sound. I think of making the sound “POW!” like the old Batman TV shows but softening it up a bit. You want to try and get a little expiration (aspiration) of air on the “P” part of the sound, which helps soften things up. Don’t round your lips like you would for the “B” sound; purse them in like you did when you had to kiss your 80-year old wet-lipped grandmother growing up.

ซ and the “S” Sound

ซ (ซอ โซ่) /sɔɔ sôo/ is somewhat easier than the first few I mentioned. This consonant’s sound is more akin to an “sch” sound than an “s” sound. It’s subtle, however, so be careful how much emphasis you place on the “ch” part.

As I said in the beginning, these are just general suggestions to help you along. Don’t take these as be-all rules that must be adhered to. If you pronounce จ as a regular “j” sound and never get the nuance, it’s okay; no Thai person will have trouble understanding you. If you are looking to get a little more natural-sounding, however, these are good to keep in mind and work on.

Enjoy!